Skip to content

May 15, 2007

206

Singapore clamps down on illegal anime downloads (Finally)

The last time I blogged about this illegal downloads topic, I actually got news that while it’s true, they were not really starting to execute it yet. But it seems like all that is about to change.

You can see a list of liscensed anime here.

After asking various people that I think would know better, I can’t confirm whether this is actually happening, although my instincts tell me that the government is serious this time. Don’t ask me things like whether Bittorrent / youtube / crunchroll is illegal. I have no idea, and if you’re worried, you shouldn’t try any of them but should buy the licensed VCDs instead. Besides I think it’s hard to quantify whether the actual creators of anime gain or lose out by the use of fansubs.

Don’t bother debating what effects this has on the anime community in Singapore. Whether good or bad, it has been debated to death over and over again. I guess the government believes that it’s vital to uphold Singapore’s reputation as a place that protect intellectual property.

Obviously I have no idea whether this is fact or fiction, but you’re better off stopping downloads.

Anyway, personally for this blog, I haven’t decided what to do with it. I’m considering whether to continue blogging about unlicensed anime titles, (compared to the list mentioned above), and letting my jap friends fill in some blanks as well.

Yup. No idea where I would go from here. But the most sad part to me is that this would definitely mean the death of the current local anime blogging community. (It will probably still exist, just in a modified form)

*update* Odex is updating their website to include translator’s blog, paid anime downloads. That should be interesting.

*another update* Actually, I’m pretty upset with the comments I see in the singapore blogsphere in general with regards to anime downloads. It shows how much we’ve come to think of anime as “free stuff”. I’m quite excited with what Odex and companies are planning to do, why won’t people just give them a chance. Time to do things within a legal framework. Half the time, the reasonings I see behind arguments are just plain excuses.

*update 3* Check out latest entry regarding more updated information, especially some news article that appeared on straitstimes and newspaper. Information available includes how much is the fine ($3k-5k) and which isp are affected. (Singnet and Starhub definitely are. Pacnet has recieved a court order to ask them to match users to the I.P. addresses.)

Read more from News
206 Comments Post a comment
  1. Vallen Chaos Valiant
    May 15 2007

    There is one thing I am sure I will be interested in though…

    Assuming (that’s a big “if”) fansub distribution is completely stopped in Singapore, I want to see if people can compile the sales numbers of anime DVDs before and after the event, and to see how it affects the profits of the DVD companies. One way or another, we could find out if Fansubs were truly bad for business, or just hot air.

    Reply
  2. May 15 2007

    >>But the most sad part to me is that this would definitely mean the death of the current local anime blogging community.

    You could buy anime DVDs and blog them :P
    Then like, get together and trade the DVDs you buy with eachother. If there are enough of you, after long enough, the DVDs will have cost an infinitely small amount of money.

    Reply
  3. May 15 2007

    what fun is there to be blogging on an episode of anime that was released 2 years ago? haha…

    anyway, sometimes i still dun get how this licensing works. doesn’t the rights belong to the Japanese Broadcasting TV networks to begin with? How come ppl are saying that fansubs are ok when these fansubs are taking what the Japan networks are broadcasting? Tedfox, care to enlighten me on this IP issues?

    Reply
  4. tedfox
    May 15 2007

    @Vallen: It can be said for sure that you’ll never be able to get such data. Look at RIAA and song downloads, The issue has been looked at for so long, but never settled.

    @lolikit: That’s true, if only anime DVDs arn’t so hard to find here. (sure there are plenty of VCDs though. but like Mossie said, blogging 2 yr old anime is boring)

    @Mossie: I think it’s a fact that fansubs are illegal. (of course laws differ from country to country, but in most countries, they are illegal)However, groups argue that when a series is not licensed in a certain country, nobody loses out from the fansubs since nobody is “selling” the series in the country. Thus usually they stop when a license is announced. (not everyone does though) And in the past, people used to close one eye with regards to fansubs when nobody has licensed a series.

    Reply
  5. May 15 2007

    Yawn.

    A hueg list.

    Any action yet? Nada.

    At least we’re warned beforehand, heh.

    Reply
  6. May 15 2007

    seriously~ please remove post. ur causing some problems to the nice people who were nice enough to tell u all as friends.

    Reply
  7. May 16 2007

    bj0rN: I’ve noticed you on several aniblogs. To begin with, your pompous tone isn’t at all endearing. Secondly, perhaps it’s time for you to understand, if not acknowledge the fact that we don’t get information from just ‘friends’ nowadays. Total strangers give total strangers information. Happily. Don’t talk like they are a bunch of crooks spreading privileged information.

    [sorry ah tedfox... blogging in your comments lol]

    We are upset with this selfish move because all we want is to be able to continue our hobby of watching anime and sharing about it. The fansubbing community worldwide has come to an unspoken compromise of circulating their projects only until the series is licensed. Why can’t the Singaporean authorities respect that? Can they keep up with the production of discs now that they’ve swiped so many series into their greedy arms? What use is all of this if the anime-watching community is not even interested in buying overpriced box sets offering less service than fansubbers who take pains to put dialogue in context with little notes? Or worse, if the discs take forever to produce?

    The anime production industry in Singapore is at a virtual standstill? Please, look in between your own legs before blaming us.

    Don’t you watch plenty of supposedly licensed anime too bj0rN? If you think you’ve been wronged my blog will lead you to my email address.

    [Tedfox you are welcome to remove this comment post if you see it fit to do so. I know I'm not doing this in the coolest and clearest of minds.]

    Reply
  8. Stripey
    May 16 2007

    Unlike IPOS, this AVPAS business is serious since they appear to target specifically Japanese animation. Previously we’d only worry if a series was licensed but with AVPAS representing the studios here, they could act on their behalf for litigations.

    While I don’t think bj0rn sounds pompous, I seriously wonder about the motivations of downplaying this issue. Isn’t this what AVPAS wants? Or do they wish to begin with clandestine operations to make examples of people? That would be low and cowardly. Even the radio warn motorists of mobile speed cameras under the instruction of the traffic police.

    Reply
  9. tueac
    May 16 2007

    unlike America, Singapore producers have really not much of a market to bargain with the Japanese about, esp after singapore being constantly ranking low in the hearts of the japanese companies for ip protection aka losing profit…

    Seriously, if possible i wouldn’t want to lose this avenue of getting to watch anime too…

    Hopefully i can make the transition easily…

    Reply
  10. Eleutheria
    May 16 2007

    “Licensing in a country” just means that a certain company has acquired the rights to distribute/bastardize a certain product in that country. Thus they can sue a fansubber for infringement of said right.

    Reply
  11. May 16 2007

    Firstly, you must always understand the hard work put in by the producers. Have you ever thought of that? So now by downloading them, you’re not really doing any good now aren’t you? And please do not act as if you know my character. In fact, I hardly comment.

    Reply
  12. May 16 2007

    thus saying, we will all continue to enjoy fansubbed anime i guess… for a while more maybe?

    Reply
  13. [ENE]
    May 16 2007

    Seriously, there’s nothing much to clamp down in SG, since most major sources are from abroad. As long as you don’t nip the problem at the source, its gonna be a futile operation. Furthermore, these foreign sources are highly distributed, thus making things harder. IMHO, the only effective measures are those companies sending C&D letters to the very fansubbers themselves.
    Next, fansubbing actually helps promote anime to non-japanese communities, thus inadvertently allowing the animation industry to break new ground in terms of foreign market penetration, which would otherwise be relatively hard. (Speaking of which, I cant wait for the release of Paprika, hehe) Would love to elaborate more, but I think that’s enough for a comment not to get to lengthy.

    Cheers~

    Reply
  14. tedfox
    May 16 2007

    To Stripey, Farinelli and Bjorn:
    I think I understand Bjorn’s concerns, and have updated my entry appropriately to reflect things better, and hopefully address his concerns.

    I believe that you all have misunderstood his concerns,and are not being very fair to him. And no, I’m not being censored or pressured by anybody.

    People need to have a changed mindset as to the cost of anime

    Reply
  15. May 16 2007

    I’m glad its kind of cleared up. They do have the rights to distribute and and sue for infingments. I guess the sterotype Singaporeans are just a bunch of “freeloaders” who are now conplaining and giving excuses cause what they have been taking advantage so far is being taken away. You can download for all I care actually, we can’t stop this, but at least it’s one of the preventive measures taken by them. Get caught and you’re screwed. Easy as that.

    Reply
  16. Stripey
    May 16 2007

    I don’t believe we’re specifically attacking bj0rn’s person in anyway. Pls don’t misunderstand, I’m not whining about non-downloads nor are we minimising the work of the studios here. Studios have the rights to their lovingly-crafted work of course. But the issue for me here is about the policy AVPAS are employing if bj0rn needs to hush blogs up. Pls clarify the motivations for getting these blogs to remove such posts if AVPAS’s objective is to educate the public of such a matter.

    As for the anime DVD scene, I have been looking soo hard for the past years, hoping local anime distributors would deliver quality DVDs but so far my favourite series are only available in crappy VCDs. That’s why I turned to Taiwanese R3s. My Da Capo DVDs cost me over $200 and I’m considering to get the AIR R3s ($220) and Mai HiME ($280). There are many like myself who are WILLING to spend on anime. So I don’t think it’s fair to generalise that we’re in this debate because sg folks are whining freeloaders. There are principles and policies that needs to be clarified.

    Reply
  17. May 16 2007

    ENE: I don’t think the authorities here are particularly interested in ‘nipping the bud’. They just want to take the DOWNLOADERS down.

    bj0rN: I apologise for putting myself the way I did. My issue with you is why you take it upon yourself to tell people to take posts down. We’re really just expressing our thoughts after all. I can’t say so for every anime watcher but I think a significant number of the people who commented here can appreciate production factors as well.

    As for tedfox’s update, you’re right. I guess I’ve spoilt myself. Not used to waiting more than a week for the latest anime. No matter how you see it, ‘legal’ routes are unlikely to deliver episodes at the same rate.

    Reply
  18. |c3^sNoW
    May 16 2007

    switch to watch korean dramas then. seems like all their partners r jap companies. hoho.
    my knowledge is jap companies do not have e practice to sell their productions to foreign countries, thus we keep seeing pirated jap doramas/animes on sale in shops in singapore…
    n death note isn’t on e list…

    Reply
  19. tedfox
    May 16 2007

    Oops. looks like things became more messy. I believe that things will never clear up on a blog’s comment system.

    Let’s just end it with this k.
    bjorn is not some avpas agent out to kill us all. He has his personal reasons, which I can concurr with, as such I slightly adjusted the entire whole entry to better reflect things. You might not accept what I’m saying, but just leave it as that.

    The second update wasn’t with regards to what was mentioned in this entry’s comments, but rather to comments I keep seeing everywhere else. It’s just my personal point of view. Sorry stripey, I wasn’t thinking of you nor farnelli specifically when I added that part.

    Finally, I think we all concur that what’s happening is disappointing. And the products we have at the moment in the markets are even more disappointing. But we just have to leave with the fact that downloads arn’t the legal way to go. Just cross our fingers that whatever revamps the companies are coming up with, that it’s something good.

    Reply
  20. Stripey
    May 17 2007

    Thanks Tedfox. Really appreciate your clarifications. I guess bj0rn has his personal reasons so I shd respect that indeed. My apologies for hijacking your blog as platform for venting. Let’s just hope this AVPAS affair would vitalise the SG anime scene rather than strangle it. :)

    Reply
  21. May 17 2007

    Anime should be distributed through the internet. The thing is if people are so used to free stuff on the internet that they will almost never pay forr stuff they had for free before. Shared this interesting debate on Singapore’s social news site- mallr.com

    Naruto rocks!

    Reply
  22. seorang
    May 17 2007

    I doubt its about freeloading, rather having to compromise on speed and quality. Blogging about anime aired more than a month ago is slow and boring. Fansubs satisfy the needs of quality and speed, even though they’re illegal.

    If ODEX starts pumping out subbed anime at the same speed and quality of the fansub groups, I’m sure most anime fans would be willing to pay as long as the price was reasonable. Yes, some would bail because they’re not willing to pay, but I’m sure a significant population would pay. Course, with a list of anime that size, I’m very curious to see what kind of product will be delivered in terms of speed and quality.

    Reply
  23. May 17 2007

    Haha no la Tedfox what you said merely rang true with me. But thanks for bothering to clarify anyway.

    Reply
  24. Somatic
    May 17 2007

    I belive that no matter what we all can say on the internet, cannot shake what the Government wants to execute. Maybe its time to say good bye to fresh anime off the net and turn into VCD/DVD hunters? Just a joke here.

    Lets just stay clear off the illegal line and be safe. Until the to time strikes back comes?

    Reply
  25. LoserEXE
    May 17 2007

    Hm… The last line in the post has a point it shook me abit… I gave all those crappy reasons, but now that I think of it do I ever buy ODEX DVDs or VCDs? not really… Yeah every now and then if I have enough money… So yeah a motivation to stop downloading (Dam… I wanted to finish Nanoha As within this month…) and start buying or at least coming up with a proper savings plan…

    Reply
  26. May 18 2007

    Maybe soon they will start borrowing the 2 dogs Lucky and Flo to raid everyone’s house.

    I’m glad I’ve shifted away from blogging about episodes to more everyday otaku stuffs and beautiful gravure idols ^_^

    But seriously, I have no idea why anime downloaders are being targeted while there’s still rampant downloading of music and software. And what about the corporate swines and cheats out there, shouldn’t authorities be focusing their efforts on those hardcore offenders instead?

    Bah who cares about anime, I’d just go back to reading manga. They’re good and without fillers ^_^

    Reply
  27. TP
    May 18 2007

    There wasn’t a need for me to get angry about it: I’ve since bought R1 DVDs to supply my needs. & it’s inherently cheaper than R2 DVDs.

    Reply
  28. May 29 2007

    if they wanna set a copyright or whatever legal shit control to anime downloading, they gotta make sure the have the latest version of the anime. i dont support free downloading neither do i support buying pirated software, but the fact stands, the companies cant deliver animes as fast as its shown in japan to singapore.

    i waited like 6 years before i got my hands on macross back in 1992. and i had to pay like 50bucks for a TAPE. (can u believe it, 50 bucks… its a lot back in 92…)

    so yeah.. if they wanna copyright all the shit, make sure they got the latest shit on sale or i’d still be downloading.

    Reply
  29. Li Gangyi
    Jun 4 2007

    Well, if good quality DVDs and not the locale crap right now is available, I personally wouldn’t mind buying them myself…

    Reply
  30. Klephilantro WhiteHorse
    Jun 8 2007

    Its all sooo true.,. Unless the anime company can keep up with e demand (and not release anime on tape 6years later -_-”"), the downloads arent gonna stop.,. Y do people download? They wanna watch the latest episode, wanna know more of the story ahead of their friends and (of cos) dont wanna wait for the dvds to be released cos its taking too long.,.
    A simple fact really: DEMAND > Time of dvd release
    And the demand is over a million fold compared to the release,.
    I download too.,. But i buy the respective dvds and more when they are released to the market.,.
    Which episode is bleach at in the online community? Which episode is bleach at in the market?
    What about naruto, eyeshield and alot others?
    Unless the company can keep up with the dvd releases, there aint no way the illegal anime downloads are gonna smoother down.,.
    “You wanna correct other people’s mistakes? Correct yours first,. Release the dvds to the market sooner”
    ‘Nuf said

    Reply
  31. AnimeFan
    Jun 10 2007

    Hi. New here and just wanted to post my comments. I am personally fine with buying anime. However, ODEX has a long way to go in terms of their subbing. Some of the translations are just plain wrong and certain phrases and suffixs (such as -chan, -san, -sama) are translated wrongly. Like in Shakugan No Shana, “onee-sama” was translated as “master”. I will say that it’s not entirely the translators fault because it may be because of the upper management that these things happen (such as dumbing down anime or making it more kid friendly). I hope that ODEX will realize what anime lovers in Singapore wish for. If they can do that, their sales will go up and people like us will be happy.

    Reply
  32. Franky
    Jul 15 2007

    Isn\’t it time for us to unite and let those morons know that they have been neglecting our needs?! They are buying with fire, the result is going to be very obvious. Without mutual respect and cooperation, it will be a matter of time they will face financial crisis.

    With their non-rationale behaviour and illogic marketing strategy, Odex sued the fans and recovered part of the losses. That\’s nothing more than a short term boost, I strongly believe they will crush themselves and kiss the ground forever very soon. We have seen many companies that did the same to the consumers, the end result was expected.

    If all of you here truly, like I do, demand quality product, we must show them our determination. I believe I don\’t need to explain how you all should do it.

    Reply
  33. Aoi Jin
    Jul 15 2007

    Ok, here is some bad news for anime fansubber supporters.

    One of my pals, from school just receive a few thousand dollar fine from Odex. The reason they gave was because he downloaded Code Geass and D.grayman. He got this letter like only a few days ago and the details on the papers states that it was because he downloaded the files back in March and April.

    Here we are trying to form a small group trying to protest against them fining him, but avoiding taking it to court. My school has an enormously large anime community, so we just hope to put our thoughts across to them.

    Reply
  34. kmjoe
    Jul 16 2007

    mayb we sld expand this group… i’ll join

    Reply
  35. Franky
    Jul 16 2007

    I will help. Please fill me in the details.

    Reply
  36. RainInJune
    Jul 28 2007

    lol, yea fill me up for it as well, cauz i justed received the letter for dling D-grayman, lol

    Reply
  37. kiseki
    Jul 29 2007

    Needed all relevent details too. I have just received the letter for downloading Mai Otome, Nanoha, Bleach, and death note recently, and my last year’s downloads Tsubasa Chronicle, Ouran high.

    Any idea how to not be charged?

    Reply
  38. tedfox
    Jul 29 2007

    Personally, I doubt there’s any easy way out.

    Best to arrange to meet Odex as stated in the letter, and pay the money they ask for.

    You can always try to go to court, but i doubt there would be any good conclusion

    Reply
  39. keigo
    Jul 31 2007

    I received a letter afew days back too. Got to pay them $3,500 to “Cover” their mouth. (To ODEX company, not to govt)

    The whole point is that if govt wishes us to stop dling anime, they shld aware us through media advertisement or any other way to notify us (the innocent users) who do not know that dling anime is wrong to stop dling anime. I believed that would be a more efficient way to stop singaporean from dling anime rather than keeping this as a secret and catching 1 by 1 so they can earn more income??? Its like free $$ dropping into their pocket which makes me feel very ridiculous about.

    Whats the point of catching and forcing us to pay instead of educating and notifying users not to download anime? The whole point is that they wanna earn. If they wanna stop, ISP shld give us a warning letter to stop us from dling rather than ISP disclosing our privacy to ODEX, whats the whole point of it?!?!

    -Irritated & Frustrated-

    Reply
  40. Jul 31 2007

    I believe that Odex did warn at the start of the year, and it was publicized in the newspapers. Word was spread around the forums too, but i think not too many ppl paid attention to it.

    I think tj han from riuva.com did have a meeting with odex to clarify matters, and should clear up some of the misunderstandings brought up by various people

    Reply
  41. keigo
    Jul 31 2007

    It’s totally not noticeable, if u want to let people in singapore knows, spread it and stop keeping it as a secret. Singapore is already a “small” dot as compared to the other country, yet we are still not notified that we arent suppose to dl anime, the next moment is that the letter is infront of us waiting for us to pay ODEX money. -_-”

    How about people who dont have the habit of reading newspaper? How are we gonna know in that case?

    >> BEST Solution : Publicise to the whole singapore and let everyone knows, so parents would also prevent young children from dling anime on the internet..

    Just put it simple, the ways “They” do things is just VERY INEFFICIENT. All they care for, is not to stop people from downloading, but to earn more income…… think about it.

    Reply
  42. got owned
    Aug 1 2007

    got a letter few days ago for dling saiunkoku. odex giving me chance to pay by installments after i finish school… i didnt even know that was possible!

    Anyway, i’m taking follow-up actions and checking out the court order they had on Singnet to reveal our info. I just don’t like the way odex is dealing with this matter. the representative said that the money we are paying is going towards the court order and the money to pay Singnet for revealing the IP adds.

    The main question is this: why do you have to pay singnet again when you already have the court order?

    Reply
  43. 1337
    Aug 3 2007

    I think they are trying to ask SINGNET to help track us down so that they can sabo us (more money)

    Reply
  44. y2kseed
    Aug 3 2007

    From my point of view.. in the attempt of stopping anime downloaders.. odex has became somewhat corrupted..
    it’s true that they had obtain the licence of distributing the anime in singapore.. but what gives them the rights to monopolize the singapore anime market and demand all those fansub supporters to give them money.. come on.. they only bought the licence from the jap studio so that they can sell their copy of anime in singapore (if i’m not wrong).. but now they are exploiting the system.. saying that downloading is affecting their business and due to that.. they are going to charge us to court if we don’t BRIBE them and their accomplice with the amount of money they demand.. i mean who give them the rights to extort money from us ignorant anime lovers.. does that mean anyone who form a small organisation and buy a licence of a certain popular anime from the jap studio.. can go pay singnet some money to get them to reveal our private information and then hire a small lawyer and threathen to charge us to court if we don’t give them money? if it is true then hey guys why don’t we go buy a licence, we can extort even more money from these stupid and ignorant anime downloaders..
    i believe most ppl don’t mind paying the fine if it is paid to the producer of the anime but now it is not the case.. they are paying them to singnet and the lawyers.. is that fair?
    let’s talk abt something else.. now odex is ‘earning’ money from all the extortion by sending letters to us.. they had improve their income.. so now.. will they stop sending the letters? no they will not.. at least any business-minded organisation will not.. since it can give them even more income… am i right?
    now with the government as backing.. wouldn’t any buisness-minded organisation be more daring in their act of corruption?
    come on.. if u were the mgt committee of odex.. will u not exploit this golden chance to earn endless money..?? personally this is what i believe now until odex stop sending extortion letters to everyone..

    Reply
  45. y2kseed
    Aug 3 2007

    tedfox.. i read through my comments and found that part of it is very sensitive.. juz delete my comment if u think it is inapproriate..

    Reply
  46. lol
    Aug 9 2007

    guys if you can’t download animes..watch it on crunchyroll.com :)…you can get the high quality for a small fee of US$5 per month lol. They update quite fast too ^_^…its sad how greedy this odex people are…-.- lol extortion letter..nice way to put it haha. Just boycott all odex stuffs and wait for the company to close..whose going to sue any of your asses ??lol

    Reply
  47. Sakurazaki
    Aug 10 2007

    I do not blame Odex for doing this. If they can provide to the general public by providing anime for the poeple. I suggest they start a channel on Local TV that shows New anime that comes out in Japan. As I’ve research on some anime, The animation that ODEX shows on TV or sells on VCD or DVD are shown in Japan a few years ago and not the latest. If they can show it on TV before the torrents or fan subs come out, there will sure be lesser people downloading these animes.

    Reply
  48. Sakurazaki
    Aug 10 2007

    I would like to add that Odex has made the anime world a Monopoly, they do not have the right to license the anime that Japan themself have not license. Futhermore if US does not license the anime that has english subs or dubs, they aso cannot say that this anime is license. form what I noe if an anime that has english subs but not licened in US, it is not considered ILLEGAL to downlaod such anime. As they do not have the right from Japan to license this anime.

    Reply
  49. Mr.Anti
    Aug 10 2007

    The best thing to do now is to watch online, They cannot stop us from watching such videos online… U can watch from websites that provide such anime… They can stop people from downlaoding anime but not from watching them online. this is because it is not ILLEGAL i emphasize “ILLEGAL” as you can legally watch from the internet sites. If we cannot do so, Why is there a need for computers or internet websites? If watching online is ILLEGAL, then where will we find the videos that we want? Odex do so as they are failing to provide to the general public and that they do not have enough funds to maintain this company… we should do juz like wad lol says… jus boycott them and wait for their company to ROT n DIE!!!

    Reply
  50. Aug 10 2007

    With respect to what Sakurazaki said in your second comment, it is possible for them to license, and they HAVE done it. Thus it’s illegal to download the anime.

    In addition to what Mr. Anti said, watching online IS illegal, except that it’s very tough to enforce it. Internet sites are for you to watch LEGAL streaming videos.

    But Sakurazaki made a good point about availability of episodes online. But I believe this is controlled by the Japanese animation companies, and they do not like releasing the episodes until the DVDs are released. (usually 6 mths later)

    Reply
  51. Sakurazaki
    Aug 10 2007

    If watching online is illegal might as well in the first place dun come out with computer, dun come up wif internet… And let everyone sit at home n rot to death… no matter what many people due to this have decided to boycott animation disc that is by odex… I rather spend $20 more dollars to import from either mayb from taiwan or buy online at play-asia.com… Just because they fail in their business, they wan to suck our money this is dam totally unfair… I have given my fairshare of supporting ODEX… Y must they do this to us?

    Reply
  52. Shin
    Aug 11 2007

    If only they improve their speed and quality…

    I’ve switch to US dvds after getting the Shana dvd from Odex.. I feel cheated after getting it. I just have to pay a few more dollars for a much better quality, better subtitles and maybe a few extra freebies..

    Reply
  53. Aug 11 2007

    Being a avid bleach watcher myself and reading all 5X comments above I have come to a conclusion that ODEX , while morally correct to attempt to stop anime DLers with huge fines , should do their part and give decently quick releases , Bleach , for example is pretty backdated according to my friend . Currently Bleach on an undisclosed fansub is already at episode 136 . It was released only 1 day after the original anime was aired in Japan .

    ODEX is indeed slightly overboard with the fines . It’s extremely immoral to slap fines on those whom you catch just to “recoup” your loses . A warning letter should be sent to give ample warning to repent as not EVERYONE watches the news or reads papers . A direct slapping of a humungous fine will only lead to a boycott or drop of sales due to indignition of both fans and consumers of ODEX products .

    Next , I’m sure that everyone wants to catch up with latest episodes of anime . Take this senario for example …

    Guy 1 : Yo dude !!! Lol Ulroquerria (I 4got how to spell) got raped by 3 noob arrancars ~

    Guy 2 : Uh … wat u talking abt ar ? I thought Ulroqurria and tat yami guy are pounding Ichigo right now ???

    Guy 1 : WA LAO EH !!! That was like 3 months ago lor !!! U DL from where one ?!

    Guy 2 : Oh , I buy the CD and watch .

    Guy 1 : LOL loser …

    I’m sure an ODEX supporter will simply reply that his proud to support original products … But think about it … Does it really make the consumer feel good at all while missing out intense action ??? The consumer may be suffering in silence while listening to the DLers mock at them … Let’s put it simply , as long as original copies are slow , Illegal downloads will still be rampant … It’s like contraband cigarettes … U catch 1 , they’ll leave u alone for awhile , a week later , 10 more replace that 1 you caught , think about it …

    P.S : Though I have never recieved any fine/extortion/crap paper , I support those who will go against ODEX for such petty gains . I will also stop buying ANY anime product I see , in an attempt to boycott them . That does not mena i’ll download either … I’ll just go to my fren’s house to watch it …

    Reply
  54. AcESCAR
    Aug 11 2007

    Soo I guess its not safe to download licensed AND UNLICENSED anime anymore then…

    That Odex sure like to torture me by doing this.

    Reply
  55. Meow
    Aug 11 2007

    I juz got a letter from ODEX as well. Frankly speaking, I stopped Bittorrenting the moment someone told me that Singapore’s Law has deemed it illegal. I guess I got the news too late huh. Just out of curiosity, is it only affecting Singnet users? I know a couple of my frens are bittorrenting but they are using either Pacnet or Starhub. Those who have received the letter and been down to ODEX for “discussion”, can kindly divulge what’s the discussion topic and so far how much is the fine?

    Reply
  56. tedfox
    Aug 11 2007

    I believe the discussion is whether you are willing to settle out of course (ie, admit that you are downloading stuff). Fine ranges from around $3000-5000.

    Odex is currently running through the list of Singnet users. They have already obtained the list of Starhub users as well, but need to finish processing the singnet users first.

    Reply
  57. Aug 12 2007

    Great … So they got StarHub’s too … Let’s rally support and bring down ODEX’s corrupted ways of overrated fine amounts !!!

    Reply
  58. Meow
    Aug 12 2007

    Well, actually I’m more against ISP providers than ODEX. How can they release these info so easily? I don’t feel quite safe using the net anymore. Imagine you are working for something in R&D and been doing tonnes of research over the net. So, your competitors can juz ask the ISP providers to provide the info of where you’ve been to on the net and hey, perhaps they can make a guess of what you’ve been researching?! Juz another curious question though. Does that mean that ISP providers are also able to keep track of what have been downloaded off the net?

    Reply
  59. Aug 12 2007

    Supposedly yes . They keep track of all your download ins and outs .

    Reply
  60. tedfox
    Aug 12 2007

    Odex got an outside company to track who downloaded illegally from bittorent, (it’s not hard, using your own bittorrent client, you can see easily who else is downloading) Armed with the IP address of all who downloaded, they went to court and got a court order to ask the ISP to reveal who matches the IP address.

    You don’t have to worry excessively. Ordinarily, your ISP cannot just anyhow reveal information, unless you do something illegal. I don’t believe they actually track what actual data you download, just what you connect to.

    Reply
  61. Aug 12 2007

    Anyway , 3~5k fines are exorbitant in every way … Even SG laws dun send fines that high … They just want a nice leech off from us … Honestly TedFox , if you feel that such a huge fine is justified , and continue to supprt them , u might as well hang yourself . Even with hefty fines in place , people will still continue such activities , they’ll find ways to hide themselves etc etc . Besides , this only brings out more defiant behaviour . ODEX can fine them now , and recoup their losses , or maybe even profit from it (Think 10 box sets @ $10 each 10×10 = $100 . $3000/$10 = 300 The price of 300 box sets !) Don’t YOU think it’s unreasonable to impose such hefy fines ?!

    Reply
  62. tedfox
    Aug 12 2007

    Lol. no where did I say that it was justified. You can always read my latest entry. I was just trying to correct some misconceptions. This doesn’t mean that I feel that Odex’s actions are right.

    Reply
  63. Meow
    Aug 12 2007

    No matter whether it’s justified or not, right or wrong, for those who have so far received the letter, we are at ODEX’s mercy. Even if you bring up this case to CASE or even to court, I believe there’s nothing much that can be done since it is Singapore’s Law. Nothing much to argue there. I am very sure that a lot of you out there will say something like “hey, don’t give up without a fight” and things like that but honestly speaking, what exactly can be done here to get out of this sticky situation? But one thing I’m not very happy about is of course, the lack of communication regarding this illegal downloading thingy. I don’t watch TV. Seldom have time to flip the newspaper or listen to the radio thus I’ve no idea tat anime downloading is illegal until my fren told me (which is already too late judging from the received letter). ISPs should at least send out emails or something like tat to their customers that such a thingy is illegal. Well, all that is wishful thinking now…

    Reply
  64. Franky
    Aug 13 2007

    Hi guys, I’m sorry to have being away for too long… I bring some news.

    According to my trusted lawyer, it is somewhat possible for Odex to lose the case. What do I mean for that? Simple… Copyright is made in the 1st place to prevent anyone from uploading info or other things like as though they own it. The law works on uploaders… In theory, companies cannot sue the downloaders as the download was made possible and easy thanks to the uploaders.

    Another interesting fact is that downloaders will only be sued if 2 conditions are met:

    1. Download files when the the source of place stated “Unauthorised Download is not allowed and any downloads without paying is not permitted” or sentences that has the same meaning. (take note: the site don’t require us to pay and so the issue is the hosting sites)
    2. Hack into the system and steal files.

    Obviously, common downloaders will never break these 2 conditions…

    Solutions? Seek a lawyer together with whatever nonsence Odex gave you (be it letter or whatever). Consultation cost $200 to $500 as compare of $3000 to $5000. I urge everyone to look for a lawyer… There are many cases whereby people looked for lawyers and things looked much better now.

    Afterall, Odex is not a law firm and therefore it is ridiculous for them to take law upon their own hands.

    Reply
  65. Meow
    Aug 13 2007

    Correct me if I’m wrong. I thought that the chapter of Singapore’s Law pertaining to online Anime is that you are not even supposed to DOWNLOAD at all (I believe viewing online is alright). The above 2 points stated, I guess, only apply to downloads that are not categorised in any form. ODEX is definitely not a law firm but from what I’ve gathered so far, they did engage lawyers for this incident (it’d be suicidal for them not to engage lawyers for this).

    Reply
  66. Madeleine
    Aug 14 2007

    Just a quick note to add to the debate.

    Refer to the link to read up on the ODEX method of catching users on dl and legality abt it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex

    Reply
  67. Alex
    Aug 14 2007

    yea i am deeply disappointed in the fact that such cases an be brought out upon fellow anime lovers.as much as i can say.anime was made to be shown in tv(japan)air for jap viewers to watch.fansubbers helps in promoting the fact of japanese culture for jap lovers/learners to watch as well as enjoy the shows that wat we wont be able to receive and understand in singapore ,as well as all over the world.
    but to my dismay that they would consider this as a illegal download issue where they turn wat was once a hobby to all to a act of crime in pending.i truely feel very sad to be a singaporean these days for all these laws that made where we live in amore tense and pointless place to be proud of.i guess the longest ever known quote that lives in our heart would still be
    singapore is a Fine city…”i hope they would really look into this and hopefully do a reamendment ,if better uplift the law of downloading from fansub.cos seriously i find most fansubber really does a better job of translation then the half witted Odex.
    T.T

    p.s sorry for a double post as i post a comment in a wrong topic earlier.wanted to post here

    Reply
  68. XEDO
    Aug 14 2007

    Let’s go back to pre-video age and read manga online… : p

    Reply
  69. Silverwolf X
    Aug 14 2007

    Or better, lets give up internet and go back to the age of making stone wheels.

    Reply
  70. Ms Blur
    Aug 14 2007

    I think i might be too late in knowing this Odex company. Think will be fined quite heavily. Does anyone knows whether talking to Odex staff might help lessen the fine since some said that engaging a laywer might not works??

    Reply
  71. Meow
    Aug 14 2007

    I doubt they’ll consider lessening the fine even if we talk to ODEX. Anyway, I’ll be going to meet them in a few days’ time. Wish me luck (and I hope that I won’t have to ebay my anime collectibles to raise the fine)! You know, I saw in the newspaper today that Starhub will be releasing the list to ODEX after Starhub is ordered to do so by the court’s order. http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4136,138165,00.html

    Reply
  72. tedfox
    Aug 14 2007

    Keep us updated! All the best Meow!

    Reply
  73. Meow
    Aug 14 2007

    You have to praise Starhub in fighting ODEX to keep the privacy of their customers. I hope Singnet put up a good fight too…Can’t imagine whether will this incident of forcing ISPs to release info be opening a can of worms in the future. Will ISPs be forced periodically from now onwards by companies such as ODEX in order to sue consumers for illegal activities. Like what Silverwolf X said: give up on internet!

    Reply
  74. Ms Blur
    Aug 14 2007

    Good luck Meow! And I think maybe we should try and start adapting ourselves to the lives without internet.

    Reply
  75. Question
    Aug 14 2007

    All in all i will not support a company like odex that does these things to fans. I’d rather buy from overseas just like what i used to do until SG put a stop to all the people who bring in good anime DvDs for fans

    Reply
  76. Ms Blur
    Aug 14 2007

    oh ya, Meow, will you be planning to engage a lawyer?? Franky’s post stated that things might looks a bit better with a lawyer around!

    Reply
  77. tc
    Aug 14 2007

    Hi folks is naruto downloadable?

    Reply
  78. Meow
    Aug 14 2007

    Nah…won’t b engaging a lawyer. So far from what I heard over many forums, with or without a lawyer, you are still required to pay the hefty fine and to sign a piece of document. Of course, you still have to folk out $ for the lawyer as well. I’ll see how the meet up with ODEX go and then decide from there.

    Huh, tc, you trying to commit suicide here or do you have too much $ & intend to donate some more to ODEX for their yearend bonus?! What a daring question to ask now!

    Reply
  79. Silverwolf X
    Aug 15 2007

    Nope, down the line the local isps are gonna lose subscribers. I don’t think starhub put up much of a fight either. In the end they benefit too as they get paid to release info.

    The process is simple. ODEX sues people, gets money, pays for more data to be released, sues more people.

    Stephen Sing can then continue posting in forums about sueing people like a heartless arrogant jerk who will soon get his face beat in if a really pissed off anime fan spots him in a dark alley.

    Its a vicious cycle. ODEX’s actions will destroy the market for Anime and related collectables. They’ve stepped on a landmine thats turned out to be a strip mine.

    In the meantime, the shouts and rage of true anime fans fall on death ears as freeloaders also join in the hatred. I’m seriously sick of seeing phrases like “Odex go to hell!”, “odex can suck my *beep*!” and all that.

    I know fans are pissed and all, but mindless posts of hatred will and can be used against you.

    ODEX can be brought to court, you just need to gather eveidence. A fine eveidence is their releases since early 2000 till now. The quality of their products range from shoddyto horrendous. ODEX doesn’t give a shit about subbing and has been outsourcing all subbing work. They’ve even been reported to steal fansub subtitles to use as their own in series like Gundam SEED and Mai Hime, and for older series, they use chinese subtitles from hk/taiwan releases and translate from there instead of directly from Japanese causing very stuid errors.

    All you need is to gather proff. Rock hard solid proof that ODEX has been in the past 6-7 years been half assed in their releases.

    I paid a good 50 bucks for their Dai Guard VCDs back when I was justa dumb sec 4 student. I seriously regret it now.

    Reply
  80. alex
    Aug 15 2007

    yea i have seen quite a few vcd made by them,seriously the subbing is really terrible.firstly as a jap language learner ,i seemly cant stand how they tried to use “perfect english” for a translation.secondly i understand piracy is bad but it’s not some big time movie for crying out loud.it’s anime,something that wasnt being held control for profits.i was mean for leisure as well as enjoyment.companies who sells them simply is trying to promote it to other countries.and for this case odex is seemingly making it into a profit driven industry rather then focusing on the point that there are somethings that arent fix for profit.

    i seriously hope someone who would defend for the fans in singapore on this matter T.T
    it’s unfair for those for are truely out for animes and are rob off by greedy “dorobou”(thief).i have jump around looking at news to a shocking extend that a 8 (or was it 9)years old kid being one of the victims.it’s really sad,something like this would never have even be started.if u think anime downloading is a piracy thingy,then all i have to say is “fine! u are just decolouring singapore from a multi-lang/lifeless society” as we can see that more and more senseless laws are being used now.preventing piracy? i think it’s more like profit driven mindset is within this evil scheme…

    Reply
  81. alex
    Aug 15 2007

    there is another think i would like to ask.the list of licenced anime by avpa,i someone would have downloaded an anime which is not under their licence,will they still be considered under their catching scheme?

    Reply
  82. Silverwolf X
    Aug 15 2007

    Yes. even so called unlicesned stuff and stuff that ODEX will never release or the BOFC will never allow to release will put you under the catching scheme.

    This is one factor really pissing the community off. “Why can’t we watch the stuff you won’t bering to us 100% completetly and uncensored with proper quality or even stuff that the BOFC won’t allow because they’re conservative idiots!?” – Day in day out you hear this, and sadly its a fact, alot of stuff we get is heavily edited or banned. This is just stupid really. They should ban cartoons, cartoons teach kids violence. Dropping a 5 ton anvil on someone will just give them bumps on their head. Fine stuff we’re exposing kids to eh BOFC?

    Reply
  83. Paranoid
    Aug 15 2007

    I read on Wiki that there is some complication to catching someone on Bittorrent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex

    I guess it might have to boil down to the downloader to admit his guilt… and then agrees to pay the hefty fine.

    What happens when the downloader doesn’t admit his guilt? Under court of law, we are given benefit of a doubt and innocent unless proven guilty. In this case, do ODEX even have a case against us if we just L-L and insist that we did not? They can’t have a search warrant because we can always send away our PCs to some friend’s place etc.

    Reply
  84. Aug 15 2007

    Can anyone out there tell me what does Bit Torrent means ? Is Odex only going after those that download anime from Bit Torret ? What about downloading from websites like anime-eden.com, animeground-com or reality-lapse.com ? Is Odex going after those who download from these sites ? Please enlighten me. Thank you.

    Reply
  85. alex
    Aug 15 2007

    well nanashi currently these Odours ,sorry i mean odex are chasing after ppl who uses bittorrent for download
    bittorrent is a p2p downloader which let’s you dl something off a seed(other users).i am personally worried after seeing wat paranoid has replied.afterall i am watching lucky star now.it’s really something that is not within their circle.

    i just hope the goddess of mercy is with me now.it’s really stupid that they have a all out act like that to come crawling out of the wormhole -.-

    but all in all just stop downloading anything for now.it’s stilltoo dangerous to try anything .not worth the bite

    Reply
  86. Paranoid
    Aug 15 2007

    I agree with alex. It’s better to lie low…

    Let’s see how many of us survive this second wave of attack …

    Reply
  87. Sakurazaki
    Aug 15 2007

    Lols… I back again, to add to tis… the first wave they onli catch 30 plus ppl, but they have names of 1000 ppl who are dl-ing anime illegally… WTF?…

    To tell you the truth, if you dun wan to get caught watch on websites like crunchyroll, Veoh, youtube or Stage6… dun care about the freakin ODEX, they juz wan to earn money as they have been losing money! Juz boycott them or their company. I for one will rather spend more money and buy imported anime disc rather than support their lousy quality… n to make matters worse, ODEX will no longer produce VCD as their quality sucks and earn no mnoney… tads Y nw all VCD shop sell them @ 3 or 4 for 29.90! Cheap but sucks due to quality…

    Many ppl will kena frm second wave if they dun stop now, coz if you stop now, mayb they will say, “okay, since he noes, and we struck fear into this person, we dun care, catch those that regardless of this keep dl-ing, dl-ing, dl-ing…

    One more thing, the anime that they licensed, less than 50% are shown is SG, E.G. Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, Negima II and Nagasarete Airantou, but Y they nvr say Naruto, coz is by Blue Max, a malaysian company and frankly even if bluemax is s sing company, they dun care… coz ODEX quality disc are way lousier than Bluemax…

    Let’s juz all calm down and juz boycott ODEX… mani ppl are doing it now…

    Reply
  88. Paranoid
    Aug 15 2007

    I saw the ‘sample’ letter from Odex to one victim on Wiki. Honestly, it isn’t that long. So I don’t understand the criteria they use to decide to sue or not to sue??? But Bleach and Inuyahsa certainly populated that particular download log list. Maybe it’s the popular ones?? Anybody out there got sample letter??

    And all the best Meow. Keep us updated.

    Reply
  89. Aug 15 2007

    BTW … the title should not be SG clamps down … it’s ODEX clamps dow >.>

    Reply
  90. tc
    Aug 15 2007

    sorry meow. because I noticed that naruto is not in the list.. sigh too bad man.

    Reply
  91. Aug 15 2007

    Anyway … my fren made a simple Anti-ODEX logo … pls request it frm exgalado469@hotmail.com ^^

    Reply
  92. Meow
    Aug 15 2007

    To Paranoid: Sorry, even the not so popular ones and older ones also kanna. I kanna animes for something that was out like 3 or 4 yrs ago. And fyi, my list is really very short-only 4 items on it actually.

    To everyone: Hey, don’t be so down! We can always watch animes online or purchase the DVDs via Amazon USA (wait for sale). I hope that there are survivors after this wave (I’m sure there are). For those who perish (like myself), I always believe that everything in life happen for a reason. It may be a blessing in disguise somehow. Yo, chin up “mina” (jap for everyone)!

    Reply
  93. Aug 15 2007

    Care to join my anit-ODEX campaign Meow ??? We’ve got cookies ^^

    Reply
  94. Meow
    Aug 15 2007

    No offense Unhappy Anime Fan, I doubt that will help much. Singapore law is backing ODEX on this. I believe it’ll be a losing battle. Anyway, my top priority is to settle this sticky situation first. I’ll be walking the “green mile” in less than 24hrs. After that, give myself a pat on the back n go catch a movie or something – Bourne Ultimatum? haha… :-P

    Reply
  95. Aug 15 2007

    Apparently , even with the government’s backing , ODEX is still likely to be forced to compromise … Their Vid and Subbing qualities suck … AVPAS is also under ODEX >.> They are friggin’ manipulative d–kholes that wanna dig deep into DLer’s pockets to “Recoup” their loses … I personally feel that even if we lose , we cannot allow oursleves to give up without a fight … The future of all things Anime/Jap/CosPlay is at stake …

    Reply
  96. kmjoe
    Aug 15 2007

    lets just go to thier company and burn odex anime products infront of them =.= i have shaman king and i dun mind burning them up

    Reply
  97. kmjoe
    Aug 15 2007

    y dont we make a friendster “anti odex”

    Reply
  98. Aug 15 2007

    U want to burn an ODEX logo along with those ? Or perhaps sport an Anti-ODEX logo-ed T-Shirt ^^

    Reply
  99. some passer-by
    Aug 15 2007

    What I feel is that, if odex want to make their place in the market, bring out good quality stuffs. There is something call the ISO, International Standard Organisation. Hopefully there will be graded some standard of anime sub, video quality from DVDs and VCDs, before they are allowed to be sold to the market.

    Sadly, there are none of this.

    We have to make Odex know that, quality and speed is what most anime fans would like to have, with a reasonable pricing. If odex is able to release anime eg, 1 week after Japan has release, with excellent subbing in original Japanese context, with a reasonable pricing, no one would mind purchasing as not everyone has excellent internet connection.

    Hopefully odex will start thinking and stop issuing fines to everyone.

    Reply
  100. kmjoe
    Aug 16 2007

    i got some odex vcd standby to burn ^^

    Reply
  101. Silverwolf x
    Aug 16 2007

    Tell that to japanese companies, not ODEX. They’re being pricks about their licenses.

    EVEN if ODEX wanted to bring in a certain series, MDA/BOFC will chew on it first and spit the remainder back to ODEX to release to us.

    So its a lose lose situation as long as old farts in Singapore continue deciding what we can watch.

    Legitimate Anime is failing in Singapore, its not gonna recover anytime soon and with this recent hoohah, good quality legitimate Anime will cease to exist here in no time.

    Anyway, might i suggest knitting as an alternate hobby? Or if you don’t want to spend money, nose snot collecting is free and self produced. It’ll be Singapore’s No.1 hobby when other stuff starts getting banned too or come with lawsuits.

    Singapore is a FINE City indeed.

    Reply
  102. Question
    Aug 16 2007

    well then there is only 1 thing left to do if this really a war we fans r gonna lose. All we can do is work like mad save up hell of alot of cash n migrate to another country n leave SG n Odex to rot. I bet even when forigners migrate to Sg n they r anime fans they will also pack up n leave after seeing what is going on.

    Reply
  103. Silverwolf X
    Aug 17 2007

    Well, as long as you know that ‘Just migrating’ isn’t as easy as it sounds, and involves alot of initial hardships and adjustments to be made in your life, then no one will stop you from going that route.

    Reply
  104. Aug 17 2007

    To be really honest I think that migration is merely big talk. Initially while I was still hot on this issue I said it too. But search yourself, it’s gotta take so much more than just lack of anime to uproot yourself completely and replant yourself somewhere else. You’ll probably find that for this one problem you solved, even after you’ve settled in there’ll be 3 new problems. What are you gonna do then, migrate all your life?

    I love anime. All of us here do. But some things are just not worth giving up your whole life and environment for.

    Reply
  105. Meow
    Aug 17 2007

    Ya, I agree with what Farinelli said. There are always alternatives. Anyway, I’ve walked the “green mile” and just a word of advice for those who’ve gotten the letter and are going down for the “discussion”, don’t bother talking too much. No need to tell them things such as “I didn’t know that it was illegal to donwload” blah blah. Just tell them straight that you wanna pay the “fine”. They are not interested in your “excuses” (though in my case, it’s not an excuse but the truth). But I need to say something here, the people at ODEX are at least very helpful and courteous.

    Reply
  106. Paranoid
    Aug 17 2007

    Meow!!!

    I’m waiting for you.

    My guess is that it didn’t turn out too ugly for you. Anymore details? At least yours would be a first-person account.

    Reply
  107. Meow
    Aug 17 2007

    Sorry, I can’t say much as I’m not supposed to disclose anything pertaining the discussion. Ugly or not ugly? I’ve no idea how ugly yet? I’m still waiting for decision (for those who’ve gone down this road will understand what I meant here). To me, it has already happened. Nothing much I do now can divert or resolve it. Just hit it head on and then move on.

    Reply
  108. Paranoid
    Aug 17 2007

    I understand. It’s like a 2 party mediation process. Even if you were willing to pay the damages they stated, it’s up to the Japanese company to decide to accept the damages or not.

    If they are unhappy, they can choose not to accept the damages and still go ahead and sue you. It takes two hands to clap.

    Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

    Reply
  109. aaron
    Aug 17 2007

    erm i think tt the fines tt we hab to pay is rather too much. and if i am not wrong is to odex itself rite? i suspect tt they are using such chance of earning money. can CPIB be involve to check and make sure that the money we paid is indeed on paying to the ISP and the company tt they hire to track us down? coz they claim tt they din earn a single cent out of it?

    btw if i am not wrong again. they juz simply catch any series that the got it in their list no matter when u download the files. meaning tt if u download it long ago b4 they licensed it, they will still be able to catch u rite?

    lyk many others do. waiting for this company to end its business? i dun think it will be any sonner. as they can juz simply take out an old list with ur ip and sue u to earn money to sustain their lost and earn more.

    and a question tt needed an answer.
    if u kena caught liao lyk for example for in feb u download but was sent the letter during august. and u hab totally stop such activities. then when later on will they send u another letter for example in november saying tt u are charge as u did ur downloads in months tt were after feb but b4 sept assuming tt one had stop after the letter is being recieved.

    can we look for our MPs to voice our opinon to them? afterall most of them are lawyers

    Reply
  110. Paranoid
    Aug 17 2007

    To aaron,

    They can catch you as long as you download anything from the list because Odex is acting in the name of the Anti Video Piracy Association (AVPAS). So meaning even if you downloaded hentai which you can never find them legally here, you might still be charged if it is produced by the sme companies in which AVPAS represents.

    Taking a quick look at the lists, you will find that a handful have heavy hentai/ shojo-ai/ shonen-ai or even yaoi content.

    Reply
  111. Meow
    Aug 17 2007

    To aaron:follow the newspaper closely these few days and you’ll get your answers (especially today’s TODAY paper).

    Actually, I am juz playing with a tot. Maybe we should juz form an anime club, each member will contribute a small amt every month, use these $ to buy animes from overseas and then share share these animes among ourselves. Of course, in order to protect ourselves, members have to sign a letter that no dubbing of the DVDs are allowed. Anyway, juz a tot…

    Reply
  112. Paranoid
    Aug 17 2007

    To Meow: I’m all for the anime club. But this club still cannot see daylight because all the videos we import in technically must go through BOFC… so no hentai …

    And besides, who has the say to get which anime? Like someone like Mecha but others like Harem type… etc… teething issues will be plenty.

    Reply
  113. Meow
    Aug 17 2007

    That’s y it’s juz a tot… :-)

    Reply
  114. aaron
    Aug 17 2007

    to people who replied mi. thax u.

    to meow. i will also join the club if it is setuped. pehaps if the club is big then the problem will be solved. as people who lyk tt show pay for it will do. lyk abcd contribute to the fund. but they haven got their anime so their funds will be left untouch until the anime they wan then it will be use loh. juz a suggestion tou. lolz

    Reply
  115. Meow
    Aug 18 2007

    I’m looking thru my stack of anime DVDs and VCDs and trying to sift out the ones that belong to ODEX. You know, I’m tempted to juz find an empty plot of land in Singapore and juz dump those DVDs and VCDs there (ya, I know dumping is an offense in Singapore). At the same time, I’d like to ask those people who wish to dump theirs there at this plot of land too. I believe the stack of “waste” will be quite a sight to behold, what with so many angered otaku. Who knows, we may get news coverage and at the same time, bring across our unhappiness at how this situation is being handled.

    Reply
  116. Mr.Anti n Sakurazaki
    Aug 19 2007

    We’re back n with more to add… the p[ast few days Pacific Net PPL kena... and there has been issues on news paper saying that ODEX overcharge the teenagers for downloading anime... one guy suggested that ODEX "CHARGE ONLY THE PRICE THAT THEY ARE SELLING THE ANIME VCD AT AND NOT AT THE PRICE OF 4 FIGURE SUMS"

    Sakurazaki Says: Anyways... Many schools and institutions have been talkin about tis... They juz dun wan us to download those that they have licensed... One suggested this "I will juz "Download" those that they haven licensed and aso do it in the campus... but tis way the fine is heavier as you are aso using the Government's property to do something aganist the law... Okay juz watch it online wads wrong wif watching it online... juz stop downloading these animes... they cant stop us from watching online... If we watch online, their company will not earn money too... To me frankly... I will support Taiwan imported Disc rather than ODEX's Disc... and has anyone noticed that ODEX was set-up in 1999 but onli came out with new animation Disc like 3 or 4 years ago? An the Animation licensed are usaualli Shown on Mediacorp ChannelU, Starhub channel 56 and Animax Channel 84... Juz subscribe to thses chnls... which r cheap btw... I n Mr.Anti myself subscribe to these Chnls.

    Mr.Anti says" Juz dont care about the "F-word" ODEX... They cant do anything to us once we stop downloading and watch online... they cannot catch us for watching online... they do not have the freakin rite to do so... I represent the Sch of ITE... and alot of the PPL in my sch have decided to stop supporting ODEX products a few years ago due to their Quality of videos... Juz nid on word to discribe it "Atrocious" It's worse than watching on Youtube... or Veoh... Actualli U wan DL is not cannot... is say u dare anot... or try to find ways to not use torrents... It is said on a website if U dl an Anime to watch and delete it within the next few days... then it's alright but it is not true as they keep track of what you're doing on the net... Tis is b'coz due to the increase in Cyvbercrime... If these idiots dun do Cyber crime, Odex would nvr go check if ppl are dl-ing animes n such rite? So blame those that do Cybercrime like as if their father is the upstairs[Quote from show "Just Follow Law"]

    That’s all we have to say think about it… and if u buy their disc and burn aren’t they earning money? That’s wad they wan use to do… heheheehehe… Evil hor… ish like tad de…. It’s the freakin ODEX’s fault… Singapore nvr ask them catch anime downloaders… Singapore nvr ask them to fine these PPL heavily… Singapore nvr ask them to sell CD in Singapore… it’s beacuse of Odex…

    Reply
  117. Aug 19 2007

    There will be a ODEX product destruction cermony on 25th august 2007 … visit odex-rebellion.blogspot.com for more details

    Reply
  118. alex
    Aug 20 2007

    well i agree with most of the opinions on just watching anime online for now.it’s wont happen,at least any sooner for the downfall of Odex company.

    firstly they hold a advantage over us in form of using the term”illegal download” as a sword and shield against us.anyway form of disput will be put down on that.
    secondly if they were hoping for a regain of profit by stopping downloaders,i guess we shouldnt let them even have a chance on that.how long can they continue this atrocity?afterall they are a big company and profit is wat they are looking for ,they cant forever fight a war that they have to keep coughing out lums and lums of profit.

    so for the safety of us anime fans as well as keeping anime roaming in singapore.for now just watch through online,if u are a collector like myself import animes ,at least they are of better quality that is worth the keepsake then cheapo cds with a jap translation that ruins the whole anime out of it’s fun.

    again i have to say this,for the head of Odex do THINK of not just the profits but other factors like spreading a better j-culture hobby in singapore -.-

    Reply
  119. compound4
    Aug 20 2007

    Hi guys i’m just checking.. Is the downloads from Veoh considered bit torrent ? Will they be able to track me if i’m using veoh downloads ? Also what about sites that offer direct downloada like bleach exile ? Are they about to track direct downloads straight from the web ?

    Reply
  120. tedfox
    Aug 20 2007

    No, it’s not considered bittorrent, but it’s definitely considered illegal. Technically speaking, they can track direct downloads, but they are not doing so yet

    Reply
  121. Sakurazaki
    Aug 20 2007

    Me = Back

    After reading today’s issues of Todayâ„¢ Newspaper on Page 18… A local anime fan writes in to say about what ODEX is doing and what he has said is quite true… so much so that more than 70% of Singapore has stopped supporting ODEX[sourced from survey done within Singapore by Anime-Lover groups]… And it is said within the same page of this newspaper that “It is actualli a breach of privacy to be allowed to track waht the net users are doing. If this goes on all companies will juz start suing people and not do their usual trade of business”

    Which i infact find it quite true… if they can do this so can we… we can use the advanced technology to track wad others are doing… which is a breach of privacy… ODEX is not a government company and mani said on the net that they MIGHT not have the Authority to overcharge the fine… The children dl and the parenst end up paying this freakin large sum which I say REALLY is overcharged… so what if he fines us and earn money we shld all juz stop and let his company rot and DIE… ODEX is slow, inefficent and is incapable of providing the latest naime to the general public… in China and Taiwan… the anime shown in JPN itself will shortly be telecasted on their TV chnls within the nxt wk or mnth as they have various Chnls that shows subbed anime shows 24/7 a day[Sourced from friend in Taiwan, know him thru student Xchange Prog]

    It is not we who caused this ruckus… it’s their fault to begin wif as they shown inefficency to provide anime on demand and licensing them b4 releasing them.. this is to me juz plain atrocious

    Reply
  122. Mr.Anti
    Aug 20 2007

    To add to what Sakurazaki SAID:

    RE; THE FOLLOWING IS THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOUND IN THE NEWSPAPER’S RIGHT HAND LOWER CORNER

    It is appalling to learn that
    customers\’ information can now
    be disclosed by Singapore\’s
    Internet Service Providers. This
    is a breach of the individual\’s
    right of privacy and with such a
    precedent in place, this has
    paved a way for future lucrative
    business opportunities whereby
    companies just issue fines
    instead of sticking to their
    original trades.

    IF COMPANIES START DOING THIS… THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BECOME CORRUPTED…
    I INFACT WANT TO WITNESS THE DOWNFALL OF THE COMPANY ODEX… THOU SHALL NOT “F” WIF MR.ANTI

    Reply
  123. Compound4
    Aug 21 2007

    Thanks for the response TedFox. Guess i’ll lie low for a while =)

    Reply
  124. Paranoid
    Aug 21 2007

    Hey,

    Anybody from Starhub been Odex-ed yet?

    Reply
  125. Shin
    Aug 21 2007

    Guess its time to lie low…

    Reply
  126. alex
    Aug 23 2007

    ok current there is still no news of starhub user with the fine yet i guess.they must be still digging out the 1000 ip that odex request bah.may the light shine on those who are killed in this anime war and save those who are suffering the agony of waiting to be slaughtered ~>..>

    Reply
  127. Sakurazaki
    Aug 23 2007

    hehe… Who says no one kena caught… there has been about 30 people who suffered the 2nd attk wave… half from Singtel, half from Starhub… is juz tad Starhub people are juz protected for too long… Even if u lie low now, they can still request for imformation of wad anime u have downloaded since last yr thru “bit torrent”… yes bit torrent coz tis source bigger so mostly attk torrents but now since they step up mayb will catch all… But best of course is to stop now… or they might get more things to fine u… in actual fact… the fines that people pay actualli do not sum up to 10 or 20k… assuming if they dun go on court… but still it is a bit too overcharged… the fines amt up to btwn $3500 to $5000[highest one guy got fined]

    Y u all still talking abt tis… juz lay low watch online better than getting caught by Odex… Needless to say I post tis as someone I know got fined for dl-ing anime using torrents

    Reply
  128. Hono DokiDoki
    Aug 23 2007

    For those who care, tune in to 938Live\’s Talkback programme from 8.15am to 8.45am 24 Aug (friday) for a debate on this issue. Call 6691 1938 to share your thoughts. Abstract from Today papers:

    Is Odex stretching the law in its actions against illegal anime downloaders? Considering the age of some culprits, would a warning letter be enough? What trail has Odex blazed for other Intellectual Property owners? These were questions raised by TODAY commentator Thomas Koshy and other readers in the past week.

    Here\’s another update:
    http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest+News/Courts+and+Crime/STIStory_151108.html

    Reply
  129. Meow
    Aug 24 2007

    Saw on the newspaper TODAY that Pacnet won against ODEX! I’m not sure whether to feel elated for frustrated?! Elated I guess ‘cos Pacnet won the case and thus supplied a stepping stone for ODEX. Frustrated ‘cos it’s unfair to the Singnet and Starhub users! I guess it’s time to switch ISP oredi. Seems like big players always kanna…

    Reply
  130. alex
    Aug 24 2007

    lol it seems like odex will be losing a 1000 ip worth of profit from Pacnet users =P.they deserve it.i wonder how the starhub and singtel companies will respond to this.since they have released the ip which was ” forced without any ablility to defend” the ip users

    conpensation i hope lol to those who are affected by odex.after all they did not stand firm on their rules.

    Reply
  131. Meow
    Aug 24 2007

    I’m very sure that ODEX is gonna appeal. As for Starhub, if they’ve not released the info to ODEX yet, they may have a fighting chance. Perhaps Starhub should use the legal team that Pacnet use for their appeal, should they consider. But I believe Singtel is too late ‘cos quite a no. of their customers already received the “letter of death” (ie info already given out to ODEX), me being one of them. This makes me wonder if the legal team used by Singtel & Starhub are too weak or perhaps these ISPs don’t have much fighting spirits to protect the privacy of their customers.

    Anyway, 3 cheers for the judge presiding over the case of ODEX vs Pacnet and also another 3 cheers for the legal team representing Pacnet!

    Reply
  132. tedfox
    Aug 24 2007

    Starhub had already lost the case earlier, and if i’m not wrong, there are actually starhub users who have recieved the letter.

    Reply
  133. alex
    Aug 26 2007

    yea i have heard of the news of some starhub users has already received the letter of death

    i really have no comments on wat ever damn is happening to singapore and odex
    but wat i can say is i am pretty sad aboout it -.-
    .i think as for odex vs pacnet.they did a appeal that might be arised again 14 days after the lost of the case.

    hope pacnet can win the war somehow.at least this will bring up some light into the darkness

    Reply
  134. Furtoosh
    Aug 26 2007

    If I wanted to get an anime DVD and found it only available on Amazon or other online shops, but after a long search on the Internet I found a direct link or a torrent file to download it, I would choose the latter. I would tell people about that source and those would tell others, and so on. I see it happening that way. Many anime fans prefer fansubs over dubbed anime. I knew about the number of leechers as well as the seeds of a latest fan-subbed episode of Bleach reaching above 22,000! A total of, maybe, over 50,000 people downloaded that episode. Will not that affect the sales of the dubbed anime?

    Reply
  135. Ice Lawliet
    Aug 26 2007

    Well, from my conclusion.

    Boycotting Odex is a good way to discourage them, but still.
    It doesn’t really solve anything as their profiteering from the $3000-$5000 fines their hitting on people.

    &I would somehow, want to be enlightened to know if watching online from CrunchyRoll, or Veoh and so on, is a 100% safe way to watch it.

    Besides, why would Singaporeans continue downloading animes even though their allowed to watch online without having the risk of being caught?

    That seems like a really wierd and stupid thing to do when people from other countries have subbed versions and are uploading for Singaporeans and others to watch?

    Reply
  136. Meow
    Aug 27 2007

    Well, for your info, lots of people didn’t know that downloading anime is illegal till it was too late. Please also bear in mind that not much awareness was done as well. Furthermore, not everyone knows that online anime viewing is available. Like in my case, i only know that YouTube is one of the options but the quality can sometimes be very bad.

    I guess after this incident, I believe a lot of people will switch to online watching AND BOYCOTTING ODEX, whether one’s an anime fan or not.

    Reply
  137. K
    Aug 27 2007

    I must agree with Meow. Had a friend who actually asked me if there is any good titles to recommend, just 2 weekends ago. He didn’t even know about the Odex clamping down issue. Shocked, I thought I was the one who seldom read the papers. Now what I would like to correct is, “downloading anime is illegal”, I would prefer to say downloading in general, it seems like no matter what the reasons, everything and anything is copyright, so it is best not to download anything…
    I on the other hand, I know of other streaming sites besides youtube, because I refused to watch anime on youtube unless what i really want to know what goes in the next episode (i watch it raw).
    Anyhow, am switching over to online watching (eventhough it is still not exactly right to do so) and manga reading…gonna cost me a bomb but hey, at least I get less trouble this way. But only one problem left, I have to suffer from withdrawal symptoms now…no more Claymore, Seirei no Moribito, D.Gray man, Saiunkoku Monogatari 2 and etc…

    Reply
  138. Meow
    Aug 27 2007

    Haha..I believe you’ll not be the only one suffering from withdrawal symptoms. But of course, lots of people are switching to online watching so the symptoms should not be so unbearable. Hope that all anime fans will be able to survive this dark age…may the force be with us…

    Reply
  139. ∞ †ωιŋ
    Aug 30 2007

    been watching claymore on crunchyroll. but anyone positively sure tt’s watching videos online is legal? cos according to my fren, dueing the buffering part u are actually dl/uploading the actual show.

    and btw starhub also didnt put up a fight with odex

    Reply
  140. Meow
    Aug 30 2007

    Well, at least according to newspaper, Starhub at least was at the hearing of the outcome of the sentence whereas Singnet was totally absent. Anyway, I guess it’s too late now to argue much about anything now. We, Singaporeans, don’t have much of a choice when it comes to ISP. Furthermore, seems like the ODEX saga is kindda of dying down oredi…everyone’s waiting to see whether will ODEX appeal…

    Reply
  141. ∞ †ωιŋ
    Aug 30 2007

    mm.. ic.. anyway meow, take care and good luck

    Reply
  142. alex
    Aug 31 2007

    well they are getting too much popularity from this incident.”unwanted” popularity.i guess even if they do appeal,that will only be the last 1000 ip they can drain money from.but i do hope that they will still lose.not becos of me hating them but the fact that justice have to be done to the poor ppl who came to becoming the victim of their blood bath.

    stabbing a 9 year old kid with a 3000 dollar dagger is really something worst then a human can be-.-
    nothing can be done

    Reply
  143. Meow
    Sep 5 2007

    Especially for those who are in the second wave of attack http://siewkumhong.blogspot.com/2007/08/odex-pte-ltd-v-pacific-internet-limited.html

    Reply
  144. S.F
    Sep 6 2007

    @TdFex or whatever the fuck your name is

    You’ve got to be one of the most annoying, close minded, money hungry idiots I have ever came across.

    Fuck you

    Reply
  145. Sep 6 2007

    Yawn… pot calling kettle black

    Reply
  146. alex
    Sep 6 2007

    S.F althought many is anger by wat odex did
    but it has nothing to do with tedfox
    his is meerly speaking in his point of view.
    pls do reframe from flaming your anger in here.

    it’s is not tedfox fault for giving personal opinions.
    cos now odex is the one that is spamming the ammos on everyone =)

    Reply
  147. Paranoid
    Sep 6 2007

    What did tedfox do to make S.F so pissed off??

    Anyway, my condolences to Singnet victims… It seems that the Starhub and PacNet users are sparred… because SS will not be claiming compensation from anybody downloading before Monday 3rd September. Scource: Straits Times.

    … Meaning… I’m sparred!!! Damned.. should have DL-ed Bleach last week.

    Reply
  148. Meow
    Sep 6 2007

    For those who are interested in reading the article:
    http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_154859.html?vgnmr=1

    So I guess after this ODEX saga is over, people will be attacking Singnet. It’s still unbelievable that Singnet would give up without a fight. Business is too good for them that they thought a minor thing like this will not blow up in their face. Singnet is going to lose a lot of business once existing Singnet users’ accounts expire.

    Reply
  149. DmonHiro
    Sep 12 2007

    Could not care less, I’m gonna download DVD-rips of every show I see, and buy the DVD’s ONLY for those that I liked (Nanoha, Mai Hime, Higurashi, etc). Don’t give 2 cents of copyrights

    Reply
  150. Sabre_San
    Sep 12 2007

    So safe to download naruto since it is not in the list??
    Anyone?

    Reply
  151. Meow
    Sep 12 2007

    If i’m not mistaken, Singapore’s law actually prohibits any form of Intellectual Property (IP) downloading. Well, not sure if anyone’s noticed before that the newspapers has been showing this advertisement to “respect” Intellectual Property.

    Reply
  152. ....
    Sep 16 2007

    ehough im not downloading any anime but can i see anime online even if it is not lisenced.. is it safe or not.

    Reply
  153. Sakurazaki
    Sep 20 2007

    Lols… hahaha watch on9 nvm… any anyways even if u dl now they can onli send warning letter as the law protects us… but better not… ODEX saga now over and They aso willing to let go of e matter so all relax lar calm down

    Watching online okay as u did not dl the video or upload it is other ppl… If they wan catch dun catch us… catch those that do fan subs but… some fansubs pay money to sub anime for ppl… Watching on9 is okay… as at most will be the website kena warn not us as we did not dl, did not upload and we are not the ones who make e website

    And if u all wan watch a video in original AVI quality watch it from stage6 website but the load is long so mus be Paitence….

    One more thing ODEX’s fastest anime shown in Singapore are… D.Grayman and Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya)… For animes that are on the rage, they show fast… If u guys fear waiting too long buy stock frm either Taiwan or Malaysia… they r faster… but most in chinese subs for taiwan and weird english for malaysia ones…

    Tads all so everyone juz relax ok? Calm Down!!! PS: If watching online is illegal, even adults will be fine by ODEX as they aso watch online… so WATCHING ONLINE WILL NEVER BE ILLEGAL!!! If they make it so, they will instead be the ones to be fined…

    Reply
  154. Sabre_San
    Sep 21 2007

    Hi Sakurazaki,

    You mentioned
    “Lols… hahaha watch on9 nvm… any anyways even if u dl now they can onli send warning letter as the law protects us… but better not… ODEX saga now over and They aso willing to let go of e matter so all relax lar calm down”

    So meaning if i am singnet user, and i still cont’ to dl anime. N odex track me down, so i wouldn’t be fine straight away? Only warning letter?

    Reply
  155. K
    Sep 21 2007

    Who says that ODEX saga is over..? and they are willing to let go of the matter???
    1) They quiet down (I think is more to get ready for the appeal on 3OCT)
    2) There is a post on their forum that they are requesting the ISP to send an email/notification to tell the user to access a link to “agree” not to download anymore… Check that link and TODAY papers as well.There was an article on it.

    Anyway Sakurazaki, Haruhi is licensed in US already… and not going to comment on your “suggestions”.

    Reply
  156. Sakurazaki
    Sep 21 2007

    LOLS… I noe it’s licensed I nvr ask u all go dl rite? I say buy either malaysia or Taiwan stock right? Lols nvr read carefully :P

    The download Part was typed by my friend as he believes he will not get caught [PS: Soon he shall]… Even as we are talking ppl are still dl-ing anime thru e net… Is juz wether they using torrents or other methods… But it is better to play safe…

    If u read on e forum carefully “Activites toped after 3 sept will not recieve letters from us but from their Individual ISPs.”, they will now cease e sending of letters when they say this and onli sent a warning letter as of now before any legal actions!

    The PacNet case is not over but even if so they can onli get PacNet users names and not fined them as long as they heed e warnin letter they will not go on wif the Legal action….

    If you have seen what Mr.Anti typed earlier frm a TODAY newspaper extract as in comment 124, that it is also a breach of individual privacy that they know what we do thru tracking our ISP and fine us, Companies will juz sue ppl and not do what they are suppose to do…

    Anyways… If u watch online, it is safe… If they fear so much Y did they come ou wif video sites in the first place rite? So dun worry Relax… as Long as u dun offend them, they dun care u…. n btw if they send me one to promise to stop dl-ing anime I will Agree to it… As long as they allow me to watch animation videos online.. to me this is alreadi veri good

    TO K: I said buy imported animation from Taiwan or Malaysia… I nvr say dl… Can u Please read properly?… Lols

    Reply
  157. Mr. Anti
    Sep 22 2007

    To K: OMFG… I cant believe u are so blind heheehe… Sakurazaki says buy imported titles not dl them lols… If u have nothing good to say plz shut up A$%hole…

    Plz lar u think they so power ah? So mani of my friends dl-ing anime thru torrents and onli 1 got caught… I can onli say he veri Unlucky…. If they appeal succeed, they will breach what they have said in the forum that “PEOPLE WHO STOP DOWNLOADING ANIME AFTER SEPT 3 WILL NOT BE GIVEN THE ODEX LETTER”, then ppl will start to question them again….

    As far as I noe… Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu is such a popular anime that downloaders in US itself cant be stopped… Somemore it’s coming out a Second Season… U think ppl wont start dl again? frankly speaking U can stop 1 but 1million ppl are dling, can u stop them so easily?

    And btw… Y u so agitated? Izzit because u’re one of them who got fined?
    What’s wrong wif u ppl watch online cannot mus dl ah? Serves u all right man!!! Even if ODEX ask us to agree to this I will gladly agree… Let me tell u tis ppl not scared till they see the ghost… Before that they dl, dl, dl, without thinking of e consequences… Think abt it, If u release a anime and ppl dl u dun earn money… then u might as well shut e company down…

    U ppl are juz too agitated.. let them appeal… Let them stop us… As long as u dun dl anime, u watch online [Definetly not Illegal] or dl frm ODEX or any Legal sites [Sites that require u to pay money thru Credit or PayPal], then nothing will happen to u

    PS: Mr. K, Dun ask stupid questions?… Odex Saga over liaos… [Offical], PPL now scared sure “AGREE” de… the things u raise are stupid… Lols.. Period!

    Reply
  158. K
    Sep 22 2007

    Hmm…Seems like you read my post wrongly. Oh well, maybe I didn’t type it clearly enough. My previous post was not targeted at Sakurazai-san at all, except for the last line just for pure information. I don’t know why is it that the moment someone writes from a different view. It is always taken as a “agitated” point of view. Don’t be so defensive.
    I did not even mentioned about downloading… :| I only merely said that I am not commenting about Sakurazaki san’s suggestions. Importing is one thing that I do too… I didn’t want to comment is because sometimes importing from Taiwan or Malaysia, you have to be careful of bootlegs. And not everyone can afford to import.
    2) To: Mr Anti, I do not denied the fact that people will start downloading again. It’s just pure Human nature… :)
    And No, I am not one of those who got fined…

    Reply
  159. nth
    Sep 22 2007

    if wan watch online some anime are also nt avaliable…..if dl but after watching den delete will still considered illegal or not? cause stream cannot put in psp n watch outside….nw scared scared cause still dl after sep 3rd….

    Reply
  160. Sep 30 2007

    God Bless Indonesia..

    and to all fellow singaporean, hopefully something good will happen.

    Reply
  161. bitterflee
    Oct 10 2007

    just wanna ask sumthin’
    i’ve seen all this ruckuss about downloading anime from the net in SG, and just wondering whether scanslations is also ‘forbidden’?

    just asked this out of curiosity, coz maybe some publishers out there started having the same weird idea as following on this “odex” creature’s footsteps…

    oh, and one more thing. can they track anything we’ve downloaded via IRC network? scanning all the above, i only spots sentences reffering torrent downloaders who got caught…

    Reply
  162. Sakurazaki
    Oct 15 2007

    Hehe… Don’t worry as other companies other than those in US n Singapore “Odex”, will not do so… As the other companies do not have so much licensed anime with them as they depend on sales of other CD/DVD sales… Take for Example “Poh Kim”, They aso sell HK Drama Series and movie titles they earn mostly from selling these… They do not care much about the downloading of HK Drama series as they do not take up most of what people are downloaing… Most ppl around the World DL Jap Anime as shown in Surveys done throughout the world

    Who says mani titles cannot b found online? If u can read chinese, U can find that mani animes are avaliable in Chinese Subs n they r usually released the day after it shows in japan

    Well tads all I wanna say but If u still not scared n realli wan find out wether will u get slapped with a ISP Warning letter, by all means continue dl-ing… but dun think they so free to track everyone…

    Reply
  163. Meow
    Oct 22 2007

    After a few months of peace, suddenly I receive an email from ODEX again saying that they want to resolve unresolved cases and that they are gonna hand over these cases to “copyright owners/exclusive licensees” for them to take actions. Has anyone receive such an email?

    Reply
  164. K
    Oct 22 2007

    not that i know of.. but i read from a forum, someone receive an email too. By the way, what do they mean by “unresolved”? You mean as in “did not respond when received the earlier letter” or they are passing that whole stack of documents(IP logs) to the copyright owners?

    Reply
  165. meow
    Oct 22 2007

    The “unresolved”, I guess, meant those that have received the intial letter, gone down for the “chat” but have yet to be “fined”. Actually I’m quite shock that ODEX still dare to proceed with this “legal” action although it’s awaiting its appeal case against PacNet to be heard.

    Reply
  166. Meow
    Nov 7 2007

    Just wanna update you guys what have been happening since the letter I received. Well, I did not respond to their letter and guess what, instead of putting my case as unresolved, they sent me another letter informing me of the fine! How weird!

    Reply
  167. Paranoid
    Nov 7 2007

    Hi Meow,

    So are you intending to pay up or just KIV and see what happens?? I think Odex is still trying to milk whatever money they can milk out of this whole situation. Is there any dateline they set to the “fine”???

    Reply
  168. meow
    Nov 7 2007

    i don’t intend to pay. actually i wanna see what’s the outcome of their appeal case b4 i decide on anything. i also believe that they are “milking” people. but somehow i’ve a feeling that quite a no. of people have already paid up. anyone here has any info? well, the dateline is supposed to be today.

    Reply
  169. Alex
    Nov 7 2007

    lol kidding me until now they still havent resolve the damn prob?
    taking undergroud measure now eh>.>. damn odex zzz

    Reply
  170. Sakurazaki
    Nov 17 2007

    My friend who got the ODEX letter aso did not pay the initial fine of 3500 dollars… now Odex reduce to 600 dollars he still hack care them and still dun return… He has decided not to return =P… P.S. I support him in doing so

    Reply
  171. Amakusaray
    Nov 22 2007

    Juz dun buy their products buy at JB and ask them to send over better den let Odex earn our money although they have right to sue but they must consider most of the anime watcher and downloader are youngster if the anime they watch is good and worth to keep they definely will buy the original to keep provide the graphic muz be good i also download but at the end if the anime or movie is worth to get original i also buy no matter i have the download version

    Reply
  172. Alex
    Nov 28 2007

    well firstly u have to know .they are just “doing their job” by leeching us off for the poor quality low sales that they are suffering.i find the excuses that they give about do justification for the anime companies were even up to their call of duty.

    simply doing something like that will only make things worst as well as making them look bad on their image.anyway wat do i have to care about them.poor quality anime just dont justify the needs of singapore anime fan.sorry i better quote that as anime fans internationally.

    Reply
  173. Sakurazaki
    Nov 29 2007

    Lolz…. At Least they tried to improve… coz recently the VCDs n DVDs they release quality have gone up… but many of the titles are not avaliable in shops anymore and also they lke hack care for rying to distribute anime but pioritise in sueing us… no offence but are they doing their job?

    As for me either I watch it online or wait for imported DVDs from Malaysia or taiwan… Or if u travel to Malaysia u sure can bring it back as long as it is Original and not Pirated… they cant stop u from getting originals…

    Reply
  174. meowm
    Dec 8 2007

    Sakurazaki, your fren who did not pay up, can ask him/her to visit the XedoDefense website? This applies to other people who hv not paid up or if you know of anyone who has not paid up. Thanks.

    The DVDs from Malaysia and Taiwan, I tot they either dubbed mostly in Mandrain or subbed in Chinese?

    Reply
  175. sabre756
    Jan 15 2008

    So, to be honest, who still dl anime as usual.
    And anyone has any news on Odex now? Tks

    Reply
  176. meow
    Jan 15 2008

    As for your 1st question, I don’t think anyone in their right mind will answer you. As for the 2nd question, the appeal case is still not concluded yet. Still waiting…

    Reply
  177. nobody
    Jan 30 2008

    what a long comment page. I certainly stop dl from p2p.

    Reply
  178. Sakurazaki
    Jan 30 2008

    Lolz Odex is back in TODAYâ„¢ News again… This time they seek help from 6 Japanese Companies… but they now are not allowed to get any names from the ISP and are to pay a compensation of 20,000 to the respectful ISP companies. The ISP can also request for ODEX to give back the list of names submitted. But now the 6 Japanese Companies may take action, but they have yet to report as when they will start. the Japanese companies can onli take 500 names of alleged illegal downloaders but have to pay 13.50 to the ISP for each Person they reveal to them.

    Aiyah… Like tad hor might as well wait to watch online… dun use torrent lar… try use other downloaders… or watch from Crunchyroll or just pay money to watch high Quality in Crunchyroll, or watch from Youtube or Veoh. for avi Quality FOC, watch it on Stage6. Anyway anyone has recieve the ISP warning letter? no right? They wont b so free as to track everyone… Our country might b small but hard to catch everyone who is trying to do illegal stuff.

    Reply
  179. K
    Jan 30 2008

    Well, after reading/watching the news, alittle comfort is provided that at least now it is Clear to everyone that Odex still do not have the rights. Passing the list to the Jap companies, well, it is still up to them. But I seriously hope that they will really think about it. We just might be the first batch to start the real “crackdown”. You will never know what they are thinking…
    Personally, I am not keen on streaming sites, by placing the episodes on streaming, you actually can be causing the fansubbers to be prosecuted, if you look from the other perspective.
    ~this is just some thoughts~

    Reply
  180. Sakurazaki
    Feb 25 2008

    Hmmm… now Stage6 is closing due to high Production Cost… well nvm still can get good videos from other sites as well…

    I dun tink they will be doing much from now… since well… Odex’s site got hacked and they couldn’t care less about us anymore… just makes it look like Anime Downloaders are free to dl again…

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  181. Feb 25 2008

    Can we really though? With the Pacnet court case the Japanese studios are now aware of the situation here, and they are just a step away from taking action. Some say it’s too bothersome for them to spend time on it, but do we really even want to risk provoking them into doing it, or can’t we just keep ourselves quiet(er), like we have these past few months?

    Dashing out in the dark here…

    Reply
  182. Sakurazaki
    Feb 26 2008

    Some people juz dun care about dowloading animes as being a hassle anymore… some of my friends are still downaloding anime thru sites though….

    As for Me… Maybe I see the Situation… I can buy Imported DVD or VCD from Taiwan or if u have the money… Go to HK or Taiwan n stock up on them monthly… As for me… I still young so not much Money to do so… So Mayb in a few more years

    Btw… my Friend DL so Mani animes since then n has not got caught yet… I dunno mayb he is juz Lucky

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  183. Mar 11 2008

    Ok, I watch anime online for free… But I watch on Crunchyroll.com, and they make a point of taking anime off that has been lisenced, so as far as I know all theirs is legal. They also do not let you download the anime they have, so once it is lisenced you cannot keep watching it (and it is really annoying to have it lisenced while you are in the middle of a series.) All the anime I watch off crunchyroll because they got rid of it, for obviouse reasons, I plan to bye it as soon as I get a job… lol, it has to be pretty good for me to want to go anywheres besides crunchyroll ^_^ I just thought people might want to know that crunchyroll is a good site to watch, and there are no legal issues there.

    xoxo
    Tierza

    Reply
  184. Sakurazaki
    Mar 12 2008

    DaMN…. Odex in news again… but still they cant fine us for dl-ing anime oni the Japanese Companies are allowed to do so… As to whether they will do so, many Singaporeans do not think they will do so, as in Singapore, they have to fly down n waste money, watse court fees of like more than 10 to 20k or even more juz to fine us for 3K to 5k. They wont do anything that will waste money rite? In U.S. they are able to do so as the law is stated “Sub-Companies are allowed to take legal action aganist the prepetrator.” but in Singapore, there is no such Laws… so hw? is it safe to dl again? or are we juz going to damn f**k care them?

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  185. ally
    Mar 20 2008

    Checking back after so long.. and reading this again.. i must say.. Odex really done themselves in.. while i do agree that many Singaporean fans have taken fansubs granted free, it seems that odex is dying.. if you go to poh kim and check out the title sales, many of them are actually selling for S$15 dollars and less.. or 4 box sets for S$25. This actually shows one very vital thing.. you don’t just offend the cliental base from which you draw your main profits from.. and expect them to go ‘oh alright sue me. btw i’m heading down to poh kim to pick up a set of Bleach’ -for that i really want to laugh at Odex.. forget all the talk about waiting and seeing what Odex and COMPANIES can do.. Btw, what other companies that are based in Singapore? Just a really really curious question..

    If anime was really dying in the jap industry cos of fansubs, i wonder, would they be dug a deeper grave if there were no anime globalization provided by fansubs.. Its really common sense.. does the japanese economy have the finances to provide the type of publicity fansubs over the internet has? Just another curious question really..

    Reply
  186. Soumya shanker
    May 15 2008

    So I’m in singapore for a month…am working in a law firm…and they have this super fast connection….i cant exactly watch the stuff streaming in office….how safe is it for me to download episodes off websites like bleachexile, realitylapse, etc????

    Reply
  187. K
    May 15 2008

    > soumya shanker : don’t think anyone here will give you a definite answer. this is pretty much to your own discretion. If you read the above comments, you pretty much can decide on your own.

    I noticed recently when I stepped into PohKim, I see similar packaging to Odex VCD but this time without their branding and the back of the back says “Media something Pte Ltd” sorry forgot the company name. Was about 2 weeks ago. Anyone has any idea if this is just repackaging? Everything else looks the same except for that paperbox design.

    Reply
  188. Sakurazaki
    Jul 3 2008

    Wa… Been so long since I came here… well, Odex realli seems to be dying… One whole box VCD at $5 and One Whole box DVD at $10… they realli are killing themselves… Well… I;ve been to the recent SGToy&ComicCon held on the 28 to 29th june… I went for both days and I saw somwthing disturbing to the eyes… yupz none other than our Singapore’s most famous Anime Company “Odex”… Well they were not selling anything except showing Bakugan B’daman… I tink so… and luring kids to the booth… but man was that place squezzy…

    Oh btw… Who says all over the world, it is illegal to download anime, Two countires veri near us for example are not, yupz taiwan n china… and aso… In japan itslef, ppl can dl anime, but CANNOT UPLOAD THEM… weird rite… can dl cannot upload… then frm whr and how they dl? beats me…

    Anyways here’s what mani ppl tink… “Odex might fall soon in selling anime, but not dubbing and subbing them”… which means they are just like TV chnls… some sorta like Animax… they dubb and sub anime, but do not produce what they show and sell them to the public… Overall, they juz telecast to us… looks like if u want anime, u will have to go malaysia or buy China or Taiwan products… well mani shops sells overseas anime products… if u feel it’s not worth it watch online, I like to keep mine, so I regulary go to my favourite VCD/DVD outlet to buy what I like… PS: Sure have one near ur hse that sells imported Taiwan Anime DVD… its juz a matter of wether u can find it anot… thats all… If u wanna noe where can find these shops… there are actualli a few located along the North East Line… Just try find them… will chk back soon

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  189. Meow
    Jul 3 2008

    Well, it’s been more than a yr since the Odex thingy and I’m surprised that many people still do not know about it and are still buying their VCDs/DVDs. I don’t think it’ll close biz soon. For those who know about it, I guess it’s up to us to “educate” the general public.

    As for Anime DVDs, you can try this shop in Chinatown point. They sell lots of them (in Chinese subtitles though, if you don’t mind). I think they are located somewhere on the 2nd flr. Wide selections. :-)

    Reply
  190. Meow
    Jul 3 2008

    Oh, something else to add. You can oso purchase the anime DVDs from this website rightstuff.com. Although 1st time registration is a bit troublesome but it’s worth it.

    Reply
  191. K
    Jul 3 2008

    Oh, you were there too? and boy, was the crowd overwhelming. In fact, I didnt even see the Odex word at the booth, till my friend told me. They were not even listed in the event booklet. I was “lured” in to the back of stage by that Domo-kun poster and they were selling D.gray man DVDs and others. Saw some people buying the posters though… it was a tiny corner.
    Those for keep, I actually get the R2 release SLOWLY… is a little painful but really worth keeping. Luckily only a handful of titles… The rest will have to be Taiwan/China release, I guess. Sometimes I try on ebay for second hands too…

    Reply
  192. Sakurazaki
    Jul 10 2008

    Wa… So many ppl go ah?… How about the CosFest VII… U guys went? No Odex there though but many cute cosplayers there… The most cute is the Haruhi Cosplayer… She the most busy I tink coz almos everyone is taking her photo… There were aso some other impressive ones… e.g. the Gundam00 Cosplay and aso the IronMan cosplay… Wow sure veri heavy lor… I duno how the hell they walk in them… the legs and hand sure veri heavy lor, hope they dun break any bones or any of their joints… There was anotehr nice one… the Mikuru Bunny Cosplay… so Kawaii~ all of them

    Well… Looks like they now oni dub and sub anime for arts central and aso Starhub Chnl 56 [E-city]… Wa they no more sell disc and no more care us… I tink coz mani ppl are tinking tad their company will fall n collapse soon… but dun tink will b long since their VCD/DVD are selling at the most cheapest price in the world and aso… I even saw some shops selling their disc at 2 for 10 dolas and free 1 VCD or DVD… Dam they realli have done themsleves in… hehe I noe I keep saying this… coz muz emphasize mah… bo bian everyone wans noe how the hell Odex is doing now…

    Anyway see you guys in all the upcoming Cosplay events and aso the CosFest VIII nxt yr… Cya there

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  193. Meow
    Sep 9 2008

    For those who do not know yet, the letters are still being sent but this time round by the Jap companies themselves – Showgate, Geneoen & Sunrise. Something sure feels fishy here – I smell O**x in it.

    Reply
  194. K
    Sep 10 2008

    Yeh, I read it somewhere. I am more curious if the letters were for those titles that were still being downloaded after September 2007, as mentioned by O**x. I am just interested to see whether O**x has a hand in it…

    Well, in my opinion, perhaps they should go after those selling bootlegs first.

    Reply
  195. Meow
    Sep 10 2008

    I think it’s targeting those who still use BT to download after sep 2007. My gut feel is that O**x definitely has a hand in it. Else, why would the japs target such a small market like S’pore?!
    Well, this sort of argument can go on forever and forever to no avail…

    Reply
  196. K
    Sep 10 2008

    Hmm… Let’s watch for now…
    They? Definitely… even if they don’t, we can basically say they started this whole thing anyway…

    Reply
  197. Sakurazaki
    Oct 14 2008

    Looks Like ODEX is not giving up yet… With Odex’s help Japanese companies are rising aganist Singaporean downloaders… An Article was found in Wikipedia’s Odex Section It States:

    “In early August 2008, seven months after the High Court ruling, Showg4te (previously T0shib4 Entertainment) and G3neon Entertainment initiated legal actions on their own accord. Like Odex, they were represented by the law firm Rajah & Tann and sent out letters of demand to several Singnet and Starhub subscribers. The letters asked the users to “enter discussions” with its solicitors within seven days. Showg4te, which supported Odex in its appeal against Pacific Internet, consulted Odex before beginning its own legal actions. Settlements were reported to range between S$5,000 and S$6,000 (US$4,000) per person. In August 2008, B4yTSP was reportedly in contractual talks with other anime studios to track downloaders in Singapore.”

    Lolzed… Juz when ppl tought it’s over… it may rise again. But if they want to stop these donwloads, they have to listen to consumer advice and not bloody send them letters… The demand for anime in Singapore is high, but the production is low… If consumers want to keep their anime n purchase them, there has to be a source… but the source in Singapore is low or more likely NONE!!!!

    Speak the truth it is sometimes hard to buy anime in Singapore as they are limited titles… Chinese subbed, bad quality or juz simply… RIPPED FROM FAN SUB AND PUT INTO A VCD OR DVD By China or Taiwan Companies… English subbed animes cannot be found so easy in Singapore… And from what I heard from ppl… the anime that u download thru MobTv’s Animetrix can only be watched on that sole computer and has a license… it can’t be backed up and has a lmit to when the Video Expires… It’s like u spend A few dollars to buy something, u can’t eat or keep… and there’s nothing you can Freaking do about it!!!

    Oh ya for those using BT… Beware of the rise of the darkness in Singapore… Mayb One day you will see people rise up aganist these Companies in the Youth park again… or mayb till will bring it straight up to the Singapore G0v3rm3nt and have it at the H0ng L1m Park’s Sp3ker’s C0rner… Yes Singaporean’s noe they are at fault… But ARE THESE FREAKIN COMPANIES BLIND? HAS MONEY MADE THEM BECOME GREED A%$ES? THEY HAVE NEVER STOP TO THINK WHETHER THEY THEMSELVES HAVE DONE ANYTHING WRONG???

    If only they do their part and we do our part, then will there be peace… but are they doing what’s right? Instead of trying to solve the Demand for Anime VCD n DVD, they juz make matters worse by making more people riot & boycott them… Do they care for the DEMAND? NO!!! Do they care about the PEOPLE’S FINANCAL STATUS WHEN THEY FINE THEM OR SENT THEM LETTERS? NO!!! They only FREAKING CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT AND THAT’S NONE OTHER THEY MAKING A PROFIT OUTTA PEOPLE!!! that’s not what they should do!!! They should care more about the people and not Freak care them lky what they are Bloody doing now!!!

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  198. K
    Oct 14 2008

    Sakurazaki, you are from SG, right? If I am wrong, apologies.
    Actually this piece of news has been on a forum for quite a while. Just some extra information, it seems like the lawyers letters are going out in small batches.
    I understand where you can coming from. It hurts when they injured the very same people that are the consumers. As in the first place, unlike Japan, anime is not readily available on TV for us. We usually have to wait for a period of time before we get it subbed. And some shows will NEVER get here. As a snowball effect, you end up with bootlegs (fansubbed compiled and sold) or streaming and even copies available for download for immediate watching. I know these are no excuses but in consumers point of view, I admit, we are pretty spoilt in this area. Want everything good, fast and cheap. So instead of trying to bring back their corporate profile, they start penalizing the very same supporters.
    And to think that there is that AFA08 on next month. Apparently this means that there is a market for anime in Singapore but if they just keep doing this, you will just have lesser otakus in SG. Anyway I am still going for that event. -K

    Reply
  199. Sakurazaki
    Oct 14 2008

    WOW… Fast repli… hmmm Icic… u r singaporean? btw… Yupz Going for the AFA too… Juz tad I noe u here & u noe me here but we have completely no idea who we are in real life… ahaha… [Juz a joke dun take it too serious]

    I haven been checking the Forum recently due to my exmas falling around august and september… Anyways this is what the world is like… every one juz has one thing in mind and thats $$$… but something these companies juz don’t understand is that they have to gain our trust and support… but they are juz doing the exact bloody opposite… they are gaining hatred and feud… There are actually things that can be done to stop this… but these companies are juz realli not doing anything to stop the feud… which makes alot of people’s blood boil…

    O**x’s befall is a lesson to them that they muz and NEVER offend those who support them… but they can juz never learn it the easy way… They wanna learn it thru the hard way… and “bleed” it out before raising the White Flag… The reason for fan subs and Bootlegs is because they are not doing their jobs rite… they juz wanna grasp the opportunity to earn cash instead of recogniction… although they are earning it, in a bad way that is! It is taught in many countries that customers are always right [which in some case might not be true]… Y can’t they juz listen to what we have to say… don’t our feedback mean anything? then Y create the bloody paper called the feedback form… then y have people speak up for demands? Y have all these when u even bloody dun give a heck of a dam about what we the Consumers have to say?

    Anyways… these companies may juz do themsleves in and end up lky O**x… A company who is bleeding to death and have no better things to do then to laze around and sleep their whole day off… What Faggots

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  200. K
    Oct 15 2008

    >Sakurazaki, relax man… Don’t let them get to you. It is not worth get agitated over this. Forums are meant to be that way. I am suppose to be unknown. :P Just some extra thoughts after what you said.

    Personally I don’t approve of bootlegs, that is outright profiting on something that do not belong to you. Even if you tell me that is cheaper. As for fansubs, I am grateful to them for providing something that is not done commercially but I am aware that is not right. Fansubs actually bring forth exposure to a very different area that is not yet explored in our society. But reason for fansubs and bootlegs, I would not really say that is because of jobs undone, but rather is a demand and supply issue. And with the “customer is always right” thing, that is not always true, there is also a saying, that you can reject if “customer is being unreasonable”.

    With this AFA08, I hope people are made more aware of Anime and the related issues involved. Because even now, I am still getting people asking if “this” or “that” is okay to download. And hopefully this even turns out really well and tell them that there is a market for anime in SG and in order to harvest, please don’t kill us off so fast with their harsh methods.

    As for the companies, I would really appreciate if they could send a letter of warning first, at least to let the person know that they are being watched, rather than frightened them off. And also make known their presence, that should help. And I do not know how many years of watching did I take to know the number of japanese companies involved in the anime industry. These things take time. And companies should not want their name to be remembered for the wrong reasons.

    Think I better stop here. Else this will become a story soon. – K

    Reply
  201. Sakurazaki
    Oct 15 2008

    Haha… Ya I tink I’m too agitated… juz wanna see this thing blow over soon… and i hope it does… all of us are under Hidden idnetities here… so i shld not ask too ahaha…

    Jzu hope this blows over soon n hope that the Market of Anime in Singapore will somehow expand… Till now we shld try our best in waht we an do to help to solve but if no avail i have nothing to say… XD

    Sakurazaki

    Reply
  202. Laliana
    Dec 29 2008

    The only thing i really don’t like is that most of the time, fansubs tend to turn out better than the actual subs the publishing company puts on it. And frankly speaking (and im not being racist) most of the Anime on that list are not available in english subs but Chinese subs which makes it hard for non-Chinese speaking Anime fans to purchase Animes of their choice. Being Indian (and i get that we are a minority), unless they have any intention of publishing more English-subbed Anime, i’d rather just stop watching anime on a whole than purchase anime I don’t understand. :(

    These are my own opinions and I don’t mean to cause trouble for anyone.

    Reply

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. The Silent Room » Blog Archive » Fansubs Will Be Illegal In Singapore?
  2. NUS warns against illegal Anime Downloads | TedFox Anime Reviews
  3. Internet anime, illegal?! « Japanese

Share your thoughts, post a comment.

Leave a Reply